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Mystery Saloon-Convertible mix-up
Two cars. One a Saloon, one a Cabriolet were sold to South America. However, to two locations very far away from each other. Still their chassis numbers are consecutive. The two numbers #410203 and #410203 somehow have melted together in the car depicted above. But how? Or should we say why?
Malcolm Forest from Brasil is asking your carsleuth assistance and let's help him after the very painfull experience against Germany a few hours ago...: "I bought this Mercedes-Benz in Rio de Janeiro in 1993. It was in the south of Brazil, the city of Crisciuma with the license plate number 6-38-46. The owner was a young man named João Carlos de Camargo e Castro, in 1968. Papers that came with the car show it was previously owned by a Mr. João Paz de Medeiros. In 1969 it was bought by a James Neil Scott Chalmers who took it to Rio de Janeiro. What car is it? Or better, which coachbuilder made this convertible body? I have consulted many friends plus the Mercedes-Benz archives in Stuttgart and the information I got is that the car is a model 230, Spezial Cabriolet A. The year being 1938. The number stamped on the car chassis, reads 410203. On the car registration, however, the VIN chassis number is 410204 (?). The factory records have this to say about each of these numbers:
#410203: a Four Door Limousine sold to Lima, Peru on November 1, 1938. Bill of sale number 261 310
#410204: a Cabriolet A with a Mercedes-Benz body by Sindelfingen sold to the city of Porto Alegre, Brazil on November 4, 1938. Bill of sale number 270 097.
So the description that more closely matches the real car is that on the registration (#410204) and not the one actually stamped on the chassis (#410203). Now, Lima and Porto Alegre are far apart and the Chilean Andean mountain range sits between the country of Peru and Brazil! So it is very unlikely that the body of one of these two chassis was put on the other chassis later in life… Could it have been a mistake on the Mercedes-Benz factory records? (Editor: we very much doubt that) But the big question is: “Which coachwork is this?” Not the Cabriolet A delivered with chassis #410204. Some friends in Brazil and Europe have ventured “Castagna”, "Erdmann & Rossi”, “Labourdette” and ”Duval”.
Editor: we can think up all kinds of forgery to make the story plausible. But in that case why choosing this closest number?
Publié:
mardi juillet 8th, 2014
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Commentaires
Inconnu
25 Janvier 2016, 14:02
jan bosman
01 Août 2014, 23:16
i think it looked this way wen the car was new
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1939_Mercedes_Benz_230_Cabriolet_A_pic1.JPG
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http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1939_Mercedes_Benz_230_Cabriolet_A_pic1.JPG
Inconnu
27 Juillet 2014, 00:08
We have concluded that the coach work was modified at the door tops. And the passenger side front fender very poorly repaired after an accident.
Thank you all that participated!
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Thank you all that participated!
Inconnu
13 Juillet 2014, 11:39
Thanks for all comments. We have cleaned up the car more. Found a number 25 stamped on the top inside of the radiator shell.
The bumpers are original. Bumper guards are not. Just compare to the 230 Spezial Cabriolet A, year 1937 when you Google for images.
Have all six correct Mercedes-Benz wheels, all dashboard instruments.
The passenger side front fender was probably wrecked and is somewhat deformed. The driver's side front fender is original.
The only significant difference in the coach work is in the arm rest that is recessed. It could be a modification. But there is an an Isotta-Fraschini Castagna roadster that has the same arm rest design... Odd coincidence?
The mystery remains the same.
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The bumpers are original. Bumper guards are not. Just compare to the 230 Spezial Cabriolet A, year 1937 when you Google for images.
Have all six correct Mercedes-Benz wheels, all dashboard instruments.
The passenger side front fender was probably wrecked and is somewhat deformed. The driver's side front fender is original.
The only significant difference in the coach work is in the arm rest that is recessed. It could be a modification. But there is an an Isotta-Fraschini Castagna roadster that has the same arm rest design... Odd coincidence?
The mystery remains the same.
Jonathan
10 Juillet 2014, 15:34
Hi,
I never heard of wrong numbers punched into Mercedes Benz cars. I know of some cars delivered without chassis number. Most missing or wrong numbers occurred due to registration and tax purpose. The real numbers get grinded out and new are punched in. It is almost impossible to find Mercedes from the ex DDR with their real chassis number. Where are the numbers located?
This is a Mercedes 230 long chassis 143. All I can say is that the body is from a Cabriolet. From the fenders and door fitting, I would guess B Cabriolet. It was heavily modified.
Best,
John
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I never heard of wrong numbers punched into Mercedes Benz cars. I know of some cars delivered without chassis number. Most missing or wrong numbers occurred due to registration and tax purpose. The real numbers get grinded out and new are punched in. It is almost impossible to find Mercedes from the ex DDR with their real chassis number. Where are the numbers located?
This is a Mercedes 230 long chassis 143. All I can say is that the body is from a Cabriolet. From the fenders and door fitting, I would guess B Cabriolet. It was heavily modified.
Best,
John
Inconnu
10 Juillet 2014, 06:15
Looking at both images I do see a lot of differences, now did I miss something in the description or are these two different cars?
Just compare bonnet to scuttle line, wheels on the second pic also look incorrect, to me the second pic looks like a clumsy try of a wannabe designer on a older- judged by the bonnet I would tip at a 170 pre war model still with incorrect wheels.
regards from Tyrol
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Just compare bonnet to scuttle line, wheels on the second pic also look incorrect, to me the second pic looks like a clumsy try of a wannabe designer on a older- judged by the bonnet I would tip at a 170 pre war model still with incorrect wheels.
regards from Tyrol
Inconnu
09 Juillet 2014, 16:53
PLEASE CLICK ON THE IMAGE POSTED AND OBSERVE THE DOOR AND BACK PANEL FINE DETAILS...
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Inconnu
09 Juillet 2014, 16:43
THANKS !
The body has a very interesting design not noticible in this picture. It seems like the coach work of a professional coach building house.
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The body has a very interesting design not noticible in this picture. It seems like the coach work of a professional coach building house.
Inconnu
09 Juillet 2014, 09:13
Do Mercedes records show the actual shipping info?
if the port of arrival was the same it would be easy for the customs officers to get the documentation transposed. A more recent conversion from sedan to cabriolet would leave exactly the situation we have here with no skullduggery
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if the port of arrival was the same it would be easy for the customs officers to get the documentation transposed. A more recent conversion from sedan to cabriolet would leave exactly the situation we have here with no skullduggery
Inconnu
09 Juillet 2014, 09:02
I can understand that you want to search the history of this particular Type 230 car, it doesn't look like a original cabriolet of Mercedes and it's probably homemade. I would just renovate it into a nice driveable car and enjoy it with the papers you have at this moment. To find out if it is yes or no a fake has only to do with the value in money but after many years of standing around it deserves to be driven as such. So if it is worth 50.000 or 500.000 is not relevant just put the top down and enjoy! That is what this hobby is all about, right? Unfortunately money rules the world.....
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Inconnu
09 Juillet 2014, 05:10
Hi Malcolm, we met at the Retromobile.
I do not know about the laws of vehicle registrations over there, but in India identities are sometimes swapped when a vehicle loses its docs and requires some to run on. Our laws here are antiquated and you can't get new.
In another instance here there was a forgery which almost had a prominent collector buying a 230 cabriolet but in junk condition when the chassis plate was examined more closely because the engine with the car did not add up. It was found that the chassis plate was a fake, and the forger tripped because he did not know German. He entered data in the wrong slots, for example HP was 900 Kgs etc.
Don't know about the body, years of repairs may also have lead to modifications.
Good Luck with the project.
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I do not know about the laws of vehicle registrations over there, but in India identities are sometimes swapped when a vehicle loses its docs and requires some to run on. Our laws here are antiquated and you can't get new.
In another instance here there was a forgery which almost had a prominent collector buying a 230 cabriolet but in junk condition when the chassis plate was examined more closely because the engine with the car did not add up. It was found that the chassis plate was a fake, and the forger tripped because he did not know German. He entered data in the wrong slots, for example HP was 900 Kgs etc.
Don't know about the body, years of repairs may also have lead to modifications.
Good Luck with the project.
Inconnu
09 Juillet 2014, 00:59
It is possible that the sedan body was converted to this home grown cabriolet.
As far as my experience, the fender on a cab would be one piece all the way to the rear fender and this one looks like sedan parts.
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As far as my experience, the fender on a cab would be one piece all the way to the rear fender and this one looks like sedan parts.
I had trouble getting it registered in RJ and used it sporadically for several years. Then it sat and deteriorated for many years in Copacabana, and when I was installing a 1960's M-B engine in it and rebuilding when the workshop was invaded by a Niteroi favela inhabitants who wanted the land. They destroyed and removed many parts including one front fender. Luckily the chromework was away being replated. I have photos from 1969 and some others in state of disrepair as shown in the article.