Mystère ou non ? Une possible voiture de Grand Prix en Argentine

Interesting discussion. I regret to tell readers that Mr Lalanne’s expertise makes it abundantly clear that he is almost certainly correct. We are fortunate to have him in this debate, and his contributions will no doubt be instrumental in unravelling the mystery raised by another distinguished connoisseur, Mr Walmsley.

I’m not attacking you, .......... but when I write something, it’s because I’m certain
I can take little credit for this, as this photo and the one published in the supplement to the newspaper La Nation
were in Mr Roth’s flat in Buenos Aires, where I was received on several occasions; and you should know that his brother owned a Minerva racing car, of which there are photos in old Argentine magazines . The Roth family owned thousands of hectares of farmland in the Argentine Pampas.
If you know Gerard Paquet, he will confirm this.
He had come to Argentina to view and buy this car, and when the sale fell through despite a ‘huge’ offer,
I sold him another 8-litre Lorraine, which he still owns.
You can clearly recognise the typical bonnet of the Lorraine Dietrichs,
but you need good eyesight!!!!! And, above all, you need to know these cars well!!!
And do I know these cars well????? Right now, I actually have that famous 1908 Lorraine for sale
and a 1909 Cottin-Desgouttes 8.5-litre, also chain-driven.
No hard feelings, Mr Bos

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Je ne vous attaque pas ,..........mais quand j'écris quelque chose ,c'est que je suis sûr
Je n'ai guère de mérites car cette photo et celle parue dans le complément du journal La Nation
étaient dans l'appartement de Mr Roth a Buenos aires ,ou j'ai été reçu plusieurs fois et sachez que le frère possédait une Minerva de course ,dont il y a des photos sur des vieilles revues argentines .La famille Roth possédait des milliers d'hectares de culture dans la pampa argentine
Si vous connaissez Gerard Paquet il vous le confirmera ,
Il était venu en Argentine pour voir et acheter cette voiture et devant le refus malgrès une offre "énorme"
je lui ai vendu une autre Lorraine 8 litres qu'il possède toujours,
On reconnait très bien le capot typique des Lorraines Dietrich
mais il faut avoir une bonne vue !!!!!et surtout bien connaitre ces voitures !!!
Et si je connais bien ces voitures ?????en ce moment j'ai justement a la vente cette fameuse Lorraine de 1908
et une Cottin -Desgouttes 8,5 litres,de 1909 aussi chain drive .
Sans rancune Mr Bos

May we see the other photos please ?

If you want to play the tough guy, you’d better think twice
It was I who discovered this car in the Roth family’s barn, where it had been sitting since the 1920s, and if you’re interested, I have over 20 photos taken from every angle
So stop playing the expert and, above all, misleading readers.
Besides, this car is very well known in Argentina, and I don’t understand why the great expert from Walmsley made this request?

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quand on veut jouer au plus fort mieux vaut refléchir
C'est moi qui ai découvert cette voiture dans la grange de la famille Roth ou elle etait arrétée depuis les années 20 et si vous interessé je dispose de plus de 20 photos prisent sous tous les angles
Donc arrétez de jouer a l'expert et surtout d'induire les lecteurs dans l'erreur
D'ailleurs cette voiture est très connue en Argentine ,et je ne comprends pas pourquoi le grand expert de Walmsley a fait cette demande?

I agree with the Cottin & Desgouttes suggestion, as all details (as far as visible) fit with this make. Probably it is a racing model produced between about 1908 and 1910. It is definitely not the 1911 Grand Prix de France model, because that had a very conspicuous frame with a downward bent just after the bonnet. C&D was active especially in local racing events and in hill climbs.
Lorraine-Dietrich was different in appearance, like in shape of dumb-irons, hub caps, size and pattern of the louvres and more. I assume that by tracks are meant chains. Both C&D and L&D had chains, so there is no difference.
About the presence of Cottin & Desgouttes in Argentina I have no information, but I could find that a C&D was active in a 1911 Cuban race, so at least one racer arrived at American soil. I’d be interested to see the photo in La Nation including full reference details. And I want to add that caption information on car makes was even in those days not always correct. Therefore I only trust what I see.

Steve Diggins, before you write, take a good look at the photo and you’ll see that the car has tracks

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Steve Diggins avant d'ecrire ,regardez bien la photo et vous verrez que la voiture est a chaines

It kooks like a Stoddart dayton to me.

This is the 6.3-litre Lorraine Dietrich from Roth; it has no number, so it hasn’t been in any races or Grand Prix events. It’s in normal condition; there’s a similar photo in the supplement of *La Nation*.

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C'est la Lorraine Dietrich 6,3 litres de Roth,il n'y a pas de numero ,donc pas de courses ni de GP ,usage normal ,il y a une photo similaire dans le supplément de La Nation