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A high end Tivoli Mystery ( update: Isotta, Tatra, Packard, Delage? )



Vincent Juvenelle writes: "If anyone can help me to ID this car. It's bodied by Tivoli, in Bordeaux, France. But, is it an Isotta Fraschini, Hispano... or? And, icing on the cake, does the car still exist?"

Editor: We have only one clear association with the photo: Bucciali. Possibly the ... Bucciali TAV2 by Saoutchik? But what is the meaning of Tivoli in this respect, maybe a name used for this exceptional body by Saoutchik? In the video you can see the one-off tribute built for his own fun by Bert de Vries 33 years ago.

Publié:
dimanche octobre 25th, 2015
Inconnu
19 Juillet 2017, 02:45
I wrote the book on Saoutchik. The car is by the Carrosserie Tivoli and not Saoutchik.
It is not an Isotta as the cowl(scuttle) is longer and louvered on an Isotta and this car is altogether too low. Too big to be a Delage or a Lorraine.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe this is a Maybach DS8
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Inconnu
28 Octobre 2015, 14:55
In my view this is a Packard.

The owner may be Virgil Neal, president of Tokalon. An American entrepreneur in the cosmetics who lived in France from the late 20's until WW2.

Virgil Neal was customer #1 of Jacques Saoutchik in the 30's.
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 23:39
The mascot screams Packard and Isotta Fraschini, but the wheel centres look incorrect for both manufacturers. In fact, the wheel centres look very Delage D8 and the French symbol on the rear maybe supports the idea of the car being French in origin perhaps?
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 19:19
As long and low as this car is, the only thing that jumps out is a Tatra T.80 V-12. I think the chassis is too low for an Isotta and the Loraine Dietrich 20CV is a smaller car overall. The Delage D8 is still a possibility.
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 11:22
@ Ralph:
You´re right, definitely no Bucciali!
I think no one really knows, how many cars the Bucciali-Brothers built. As you already mentioned, three survivors are known. The TAV-8 with a body by Saoutchik, formerly mounted on a Mercedes Chassis, the Double-Huit-Chassis with the fake-V16 and the Voisin-powered TAV-12.
As far as I know, "production" was:
Typ-1: One non-roadworthy Faux-Cabriolet (SCAP-engine)
Typ-2: One roadworthy car (SCAP-engine)
Typ-3: According to P.A.Bucciali three cars (Lycoming engine)
Typ-4: One roadworthy example (Continental-engine)
Typ-5: One non-roadworthy example (V16-mock-up-engine)
Typ-6: Two...four roadworthy cars (Lycoming engine)
Typ-7: Two cars (Lycoming/Voisin engines)

...not to forget the around 150 rear-wheel-drive BUCs fom 1922 to 1926.

Best,
Hubertus
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 10:15
I meant to add- certainly not a Bucciali. They were far lower built with even longer bonnets. As far as I'm aware the radiators were quite flat topped and barely as high as the front wings. Only three now exist and the total built was very small. If anyone knows how many were made I'd be interested to learn that.
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 09:57
i'm fairly sure this is an Isotta Fraschini. The bonnet (hood!) line seems longer than that of an Hispano and the slope of the radiator surround seems somewhat steeper. Anyway, Isotta's carried a variety of mascots but I've never seen a Hispano with anything other than either a plain cap or a flying stork. As in the case of Rolls Royce, there must be some exceptions to the rule, but they are extremely rare. The coachwork looks very German and I even considered Maybch, but the radiaor does not fit.and nor do the wheel centres. Delage D8? Not quite right, and I think this monster is bigger han a Delage.
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 08:39
Tivoli est une avenue au nord/ouest de Bordeaux.
La photo est prise non loin de là devant l’entrée du parc bordelais. Cette photo avait été retrouvée sur une bourse d’échange et avait servi par la suite de carte de vœux pour les membres du club bordelais « les automobiles d’hier et d’autrefois ». Elle avait même donné lieu à un jeu : retrouver la marque et le modèle.
Nous avions consulté un ancien de la carrosserie Tivoli, il ne se souvenait pas. Peut-être une Isotta Fraschini ?
La carrosserie Tivoli 34 rue Nicolas Beaujon à Bordeaux a été détruite il y a une trentaine d’années.
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Inconnu
26 Octobre 2015, 08:21
I think we can rule out Hispano-Suiza. The K6 and the J12 both had much larger wheel hubs than this car, and bonnets sported 6 shutters not the 8 as on this one. As for Bucciali, they had fairly gargantuan wheel hubs.

That leaves Delage D8 or an Isotta rebodied in the early 30's with valenced fenders. Or could this be a Lorraine Dietrich 20CV?
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